dysTalk Dyslexia Vs Dyspraxia - Dyspraxia - Forum - dysTalk

noone's explained to me the differnce between dyslexia and dyspraxia? I know that one is bad coordination, and one is bad at spelling and reading but do the two share any symptoms too? I think my son might have both. Is that possible?

04/09/2008 19:51:04
Julia (Member)

Madeleine Portwood's 'Developmental Dyspraxia' spells out the fustrations to look for in terms of dyspraxia:

- Poor articulation

- difficulties in dressing and feeding

- limted concentration

- inability to follow instructions

- heightened sensitivity to sensory information, e.g. differences in noise and changes in lighting

- an inability to record anything on paper

Dyspraxia Foundations definition is also useful: 'Dyspraxia is an impairment or immaturity of the organisation of movement. Associated with this there may be problems of language, perception and thought'.

Don't know much about dyslexia I'm afraid but hope this helps with part of your question.

20/09/2008 17:04:12
Sandy

I came across a quite tidy definition (given its complexity) of dyslexia on the JISC Dyslexia Discussion Group. A bit scientific but hopefully useful to some:

''The only consensus defintion that i can come up with goes something like this.

Dyslexia is about having problems with a man made communication system, the visual notation of Speech, which varies from culture to culture.

There are many sensory, and motor information processing deficits / disorders,

which individually or as part of a co-morbid package of deficits can cause the

dyalexic symptoms, having problems with reading writing and spelling.

Some of these underlying cause of the dyalexic symptoms can share other common symptoms such as poor memory, and poor orgnaisational skills for a

range of different reasons.''

22/09/2008 00:10:36
Dana12

It is possible to have dyslexia as well as dyspraxia as they are very closely linked. Dyslexia comes in many different forms. We are all people of extremes. It is also possible to have autism, ADHD, dyscalculia or tourette's syndrome alongside dyslexia.

18/10/2008 19:16:19
Michelle Key

Yes,

My son is 8 years old and I am sure he had tendencies towards both.

dyslexia has been diagnosed.

24/10/2008 23:28:35
Lisa Riddle

I am a Mum of a child who was statemented with Dyslexia when I later found out he had Dyspraxia, I started my own free website please read my story as I started my own exercise programme to develop underdeveloped motor skills in reception and 7 year later and 120 children we no longer have children being diagnosed with Dyslexia as Dyspraxia(you only get this label if you dont prevent it)was the root cause.There is Dyslexia and Dyspraxia but we are somretimes causing it.

10/04/2009 14:29:50
Hazel carr

This is the first I am hearing of DYSPRAXIA but my daughter at age 6 was diagnosed with dyslexia and we have supported her and have tried many of the interventions we could and today she is in a university in Canada,She will take a longer time to complete her degree but has learnt to advocate for herself.The university gives added support.But it is an ungoing process and I talk to her and guide her on line very very often.We need always to be there for them

11/06/2009 18:48:02
Bernadette Richards

This is from the dyslexia forum - from Mark:

Sir Jim Rose in his report for the government has defined dyslexia as a: ''learning difficulty which primarily affects skills involved in accurate and fluent word-reading and spelling''.

Do people generally agree with this definition?

22/06/2009 20:41:38
Will

I have dyspraxia and dyslexia. I struggled to do a course, I did it and want to continue to the next level but would like some help. The course organisers advised me to get a letter from the Doctors, would he/she be able to diagnose me now that I am 40+

05/07/2009 17:44:12
Tracy

I agree with Sir Jim Rose`s definition of dyslexia - I believe it is a learning difficulty that could have several different causes.

02/08/2009 19:16:03
Michelle

HOW OLD DOES A CHILD HAVE TO BE TO BE DIAGNOSED WITH DYSLEXIA OR DYSPRAXIA OR BOTH

07/08/2009 13:51:08
NICOLA

im 14 and i am dylexic. i was told that every one who has dyslexia also has a bit of dyspraxia too. i dont know if this is true but i do have very bad balence. i found this site which explained dyslexia symptoms well. hope this helps.

General

Appears bright, highly intelligent, and articulate but unable to read, write, or spell at grade level.

Labelled lazy, dumb, careless, immature, ''not trying hard enough,'' or ''behavior problem.''

Isn't ''behind enough'' or ''bad enough'' to be helped in the school setting.

High in IQ, yet may not test well academically; tests well orally, but not written.

Feels dumb; has poor self-esteem; hides or covers up weaknesses with ingenious compensatory strategies; easily frustrated and emotional about school reading or testing.

Talented in art, drama, music, sports, mechanics, story-telling, sales, business, designing, building, or engineering.

Seems to ''Zone out'' or daydream often; gets lost easily or loses track of time.

Difficulty sustaining attention; seems ''hyper'' or ''daydreamer.''

Learns best through hands-on experience, demonstrations, experimentation, observation, and visual aids.

Vision, Reading, and Spelling

Complains of dizziness, headaches or stomach aches while reading.

Confused by letters, numbers, words, sequences, or verbal explanations.

Reading or writing shows repetitions, additions, transpositions, omissions, substitutions, and reversals in letters, numbers and/or words.

Complains of feeling or seeing non-existent movement while reading, writing, or copying.

Seems to have difficulty with vision, yet eye exams don't reveal a problem.

Extremely keen sighted and observant, or lacks depth perception and peripheral vision.

Reads and rereads with little comprehension.

Spells phonetically and inconsistently.

Hearing and Speech

Has extended hearing; hears things not said or apparent to others; easily distracted by sounds.

Difficulty putting thoughts into words; speaks in halting phrases; leaves sentences incomplete; stutters under stress; mispronounces long words, or transposes phrases, words, and syllables when speaking.

Writing and Motor Skills

Trouble with writing or copying; pencil grip is unusual; handwriting varies or is illegible.

Clumsy, uncoordinated, poor at ball or team sports; difficulties with fine and/or gross motor skills and tasks; prone to motion-sickness.

Can be ambidextrous, and often confuses left/right, over/under.

Math and Time Management

Has difficulty telling time, managing time, learning sequenced information or tasks, or being on time.

Computing math shows dependence on finger counting and other tricks; knows answers, but can't do it on paper.

Can count, but has difficulty counting objects and dealing with money.

Can do arithmetic, but fails word problems; cannot grasp algebra or higher math.

Memory and Cognition

Excellent long-term memory for experiences, locations, and faces.

Poor memory for sequences, facts and information that has not been experienced.

Thinks primarily with images and feeling, not sounds or words (little internal dialogue).

Behavior, Health, Development and Personality

Extremely disorderly or compulsively orderly.

Can be class clown, trouble-maker, or too quiet.

Had unusually early or late developmental stages (talking, crawling, walking, tying shoes).

Prone to ear infections; sensitive to foods, additives, and chemical products.

Can be an extra deep or light sleeper; bedwetting beyond appropriate age.

Unusually high or low tolerance for pain.

Strong sense of justice; emotionally sensitive; strives for perfection.

Mistakes and symptoms increase dramatically with confusion, time pressure, emotional stress, or poor health.

22/08/2009 18:23:07
lottie

I have a child who has dyspraxia and is quite a handful, I also think he is dylexic as he spell very phonetically and miss letters out. what do i do

22/08/2009 21:53:29
rachel

My son is 9 he has been diagnosed with both dyslexia and dyspraxia. He is about to start in year 5 and at the end of July we were told he is now 2 years behind in his work despite our best efforts to help him at home and extra help at school. I feel at my wits end in how I help further. I keep being told that he wouldn't be entitled to a statement however why not and I am thinking of trying for one. Does anyone have any advice? Does anyone's child have a statement for these difficulties?

26/08/2009 18:02:59
Victoria Bowrey

my son is 9 had has strong eveidence of dyspraxia and dyslexia he has got a psychrometric test and they want 2 test for further thing what should i expect from these tests

26/08/2009 20:39:29
carol j barber

my 12 yr old son has dyslexia and dyspraxia,

he was issued with a statement of special needs two years ago it made an enormous difference to his confidence having extra help from an LSA especially in written tests as she would scribe for him also it means they get extra time for reading the questions ETC,it is quite a long process and will involve several professionals eg school doctor, educational psycologist and an occupational therapist, it also helps if the school senco agrees with you,

you need to prove that your son's acedemic ability is way above his output, for example when he writes his handwriting is two or three yrs below his age because he will use very simple language and may not write very much because it's difficult for him, where as if an LSA was to scribe for him he will come out at his right age or older because he will use a wide range of vocabulary and all the ideas he has locked in his head will spill out because the pressure of writing has been taken away allowing him to use his imagination without worrying about forming his letters and spelling the words correctly,don't give up get an OT on your side and push the school to try for a statement your son deserves as much help as you can get for him.

30/08/2009 21:15:13
Chris Bamford

i am now 20 and i think that i am dyslexia and by reading all the inf on this page and other i think i am and i know now y i had it hard at school but i scared that my child will be if i have them can any one help

13/09/2009 23:06:19
lesley

Yes, it's perfectly possible to have both conditions. Many people have marked dyslexia or mild dyspraxia, or vice versa. However, it is possible to have dyslexia but no dyspraxia, or vice versa. Dyspraxia is poorly recognised and very often lumped in with Dyslexia - the wrong thing to do as they need seperate strategies.

It's important to remember that Dyslexia is more than just misspelling words - it can affect every area of your life, especially organisational skills and sequential reasoning, and dyslexic children and adults tend to be more emotionally sensitive.

Parents who think their children may have a developmental disorder like dyspraxia or dyslexia should keep an eye on the mile stones. If your child is not reaching their developmental milestones then there IS a problem - don't rest until you have it diagnosed. The earlier dyslexia and dyspraxia is diagnosed the better their chances of having a normal life.

If you have dyslexia or dyspraxia and think your baby might have it too, try the following things to help your child

- use brain gym and teach your child how to use chopsticks. I know this sounds crazy, but using chopsticks helps childresn coordination and development.

- Try baby signing to develop language skills and communication

- when your child reaches reading age, use Toe-by-Toe to teach them to read yourself DO NOT LEAVE IT UP TO THE TEACHERS. Toe by toe teachs you to teach your child.

18/09/2009 20:10:46
Lucy

I have been told that there are other symtoms of dyspraxia, such as not wanting to drink; preferring to drink from a bottle or through a straw, and feeling more pain when having the hair brushed, is this true?

15/11/2009 22:00:24
sarah

If you think your child is dyspraxic (with or without dyslexia. The 2 are very closely linked) try to get a referral to an Occupational Therapist. This can be done via your GP or sometimes via school. They are best placed to identify and advise on dyspraxia. OTs also tend to be very helpful in fighting your corner in the education system. Sometimes the waiting lists are really long but it should be well worth the fight!

18/11/2009 22:13:52
Justine

This thread and the dyslexia dyspraxia question is fascinating. It slightly raises the question as to whether there should be a dyslexia dyspraxia separation if dyslexia and dyspraxia co-occur so regulary. Or is there a more scientific distinction between dyslexia / dyspraxia.

12/01/2010 14:30:18
Eli

my friends little boy has dyspraxia. He is getting worse with his behavioural problems and is hitting and biting her then tantruming. is this a symptom of the condition. I dont know how to help

17/01/2010 21:54:57
jillian Barber

My son was diagnosed with severe Dyspraxia when he was 3 and had a statement put into place for when he started school. He does not have dyslexia, they are different. My son's main difficulties are speech, organisation, memory, writing, spelling and immature behaviour. He is now 13 and up until now we have coped very well and his schools have been very supportive. My son has always been well behaved and had lots of friends. Unfortunately since starting secondary school things are not going well at all. Far more is expected of your child and alot of teachers don't seem to bother to read anything about your childs difficulties, he is therefore constantly in trouble or struggling to keep up. Despite a statement still being in place and having LSA's in some lessons (some of them are as useless as the teachers)we are still constantly ringing the school because people won't take 10 minutes out of their day to google the word dyspraxia and look at the list of difficulties these kids face so that they can support and understand them better. I think sometimes they are only interested in the regular kids and it is easier just to exclude yours from lessons. The teenage years are supposed to be the most difficult, and I just starting to understand why. If anyone can offer any advice it would much appreciated.

01/02/2010 11:38:47
Concerned Parent

I wrote ages ago about how I have written a book and started a website. I did this (my own expense) for people to have the same success as I have in the school I work in. If you have motor skills difficulties this can cause learning /behavior difficulties and the eventual diagnosis of Dyspraxia. If you have just dyslexia this can not be prevented. I know this because I have 130 children over 6 years to prove that these labels and difficulies can be prevented.You have 2 sides of the brain, One side see's ''individual'' letters. The other see's ''whole's'' Working together they make whole words when reading and writing. If a child has a weak right side they cant do this. I saw children in reception who could do individual phonic sounds but were unable to carry on and blend. They also had a weak right side (physically)when screened. Weakened nueral pathways in there brains also caused slow processing, which also showed up in their movements.These children were put on an exercise programme (I do it) in reception when they showed motor/learning difficulties for 30 minutes daily. Their bodies were strengthened/co-ordinated and so their brains were kickstarted. Processing especially increased and children that were being investigated/eventually diagnosed for mild Autism/Aspergers/ADHD/Dyslexia/learning/behaviour difficulties were no longer. We dont have strategies any more like we used to and chopsticks may be very useful but we prevent children having years of struggling. As for the hitting and behavior. We used to have this because children use behavior as an avoidance strategy when they cant do things, and years of frustration and low self esteem can cause this in children. If a child also has slow processing they are slow to react to situations and hit out, we used to have this in many children and for years I watched them become labelled as ''bad'' and move up the SEN register. We dont have this anymore. Goggle Hazel Carr Dyspraxia OH! and its all free. If every school did this we would STOP years of children struggling and miilions of pounds in supporting damaged children.

09/02/2010 13:10:36
Hazel

I am one very confused lady.My husband and I took my son who is nearly 9 for a private assessment today because the headteacher would not even meet with us.We have expressed our concerns about our sons to all the teachers since year r!Because my son is just achieving average they don't have a problem.Today after two hours of tests the assessor said that his reading speed was good,his short term auditory was good,spelling not bad.(when just asked to spell words)but deteriated when asked to write a paragraph.She said his profile was very spikey and that she believed he may have Dyspraxia.She at that stage could not totally rule out mild Dyslexia.We have to go back next week for some memory tests which should confirm one or the oher.My son has so many symptoms of Dyslexia,ie phonic and inconsistant spelling,very disorganised,little short term memory,distaste for reading,better when speaking than writing anything down.He is unable to learn his times tables very well and gets confused with a watch face.He may also have Irlens syndrome as he says the words jumble and move.(going for test tomorrow)He did not jump out as being Dyslexic because he did well on some tests but scored badly on others.On looking up Dyspraxia he has a few tendancies.Any advice given would be gratefully received.

25/03/2010 00:01:12
Dotty (Member)

HOW OLD DOES A CHILD HAVE TO BE TO BE DIAGNOSED WITH DYSLEXIA OR DYSPRAXIA OR BOTH.. - nicola

hmm , my quetion is same with her..anyone can answer ?

11/06/2010 04:45:00
belajar (Member)

I developed a series of exercises that I do in school with some children with motor skills difficulties I develop underdeveloped motor skills in children from 4 years old. Because the motor skills are dealt with at an early age Dyspraxia is stopped.We dont get dyslexia caused by the label Dyspraxia due to years of struggling and problems being imbedded.

18/06/2010 13:09:27
Hazel

do fish oils (OMEGA 3 & 6) help?

31/08/2010 15:35:37
moose

fun fit is fantastic for children with dcd and the school I work with have 3 staff already trained and run as many sessions as the children need (1 child needs several sessions a day). I have noticed a huge improvement in 1 dyspraxic childs handwriting, ability to sit at the table and concentrate and mostly their emotional outbursts have more than halved. If you have any concerns about dyspraxia or want to know more about fun fit you need to contact (be referred to) an occupational therapist as they are like gods on this subject and have helped me help the pupils I work with and why not ask your school about fun fit. I also recommend using balance boards and fit balls to help with co-ordination but know your childs limits. I am currently awaiting for a referral for my daughter who I am sure has dyspraxia.

18/09/2010 22:43:12
Annie

to nicola

my school will test for dyslexia at age 7 as some traits are common in younger children without dyslexia. Dyspraxia can be diagnosed as soon as you start having concerns just get a referral from your health visitor, school nurse or gp they may wait till your child is a little older but children as young as 3 have been diagnosed. My gp has put me off several times saying my daughter was just showing normal signs for her age and would grow out of it but the school nurse shares my concerns and has referred her for diagnosis at 5 years 6 months old. (I have had concerns since she was 2 though)

18/09/2010 22:50:40
Annie

Hi my son matthew has dyspraxia, he is 8 years old and has only just started recognising his letters. he attends a specalist language unit and has an ANA in his main stream class,i have been told they can not yet test matthew for dyslexia, matthew asked me the other day if they would keep him at primary school when he gets to primary 7 if he still caun't read, he trys so hard

26/09/2010 20:25:54
emma mclaren

i'm 15 heavily dispraxic and i don't give a ****.

so far got all a's in gcses and i never revise learnt to read and write at an early age and did 14 digit long divison decimal maths when i was 9. The only problem i have is socialises mostly cause i don't want to, i prefuire space

28/09/2010 23:41:49
who knows

i am dyspraxsic & at the 6 i was bullied by my teacher i could not think wat was rong it takes me a max of 2 hours do do normal homework i was diegnosed at the age of 9 but had a high iq i could read for britan but that didnt help, my mind ushally gos faster than my hand so i miss out sentenses & cant ride a bike or tie shoelases & my friend is dislexsic & she got help before me i am very disorganised & it doesnt help being in a private schoolwere everything moves faster i am nearly 13 i can not tell if which 1 is worse. all the learning support seem to be better at dislexsic people than dyspraxsic people

11/11/2010 21:34:09
i wish there was a way out

I need to get an private assessment for my 17 year old daughter. Any recommendations ? We live in London.

12/11/2010 21:12:26
Liz

Hi, I have a message for Liz. We have an 18 year old daughter who was eventually assessed/diagnosed with dyspraxia in January this year (at the age of 17) by her sixth form college. She is now living in London & studying for a degree but her Uni does not accept the previous assessment, so we too have to obtain a private assessment in order for her to receive the full support available to her. Student Support at her Uni provided us with a list of qualified assessors, some of whom were based in London. A.

23/11/2010 23:17:02
Mrs. A. D.

My daughter was diagnosed with mild dsylexia she is 9 years old. over the years she has attended dyslexia action classes and after two had had enough she now goes to kumon, she is 2 sub levels below her age range in class and i am at my wits end what to do. feel like i have tried everything and still see very small results. dont know whether to try a tutor but dont know whether they will be any good either. not bad enough for a statement but the system is still failing her. any other suggestions falling behind in maths and english.

10/01/2011 22:36:43
ri

My daughter was diagnosed with dyslexia when she was 6. Having read around the subject I realise that she has dyscalculia and dyspraxia too. I don't know if she has attention deficit but certainly her attention span can be challenging. After 3 years at a school who had limited stratagies for her problems we moved her and she is now experiencing an education that is leading her to make great progress. Towards the end of her time in her old school she returned to bed wetting sometimes on a nightly basis after having been more or less dry. We thought the problem would improve after she settled into her new school but it has nearly been 1 year and she has a tendancy to have accidents during the day as well . When talking to her she seems genuinely unaware of the need to go to the loo until the last possible moment. At night she can be a very heavy sleeper who snores or a very light sleeper with bad dreams. She has always been adenoidal.

does anyone share my experience? Does anyone link enuresis with dyspraxia? If so has anyone any handy tips for dealing with it?

Sue

13/05/2011 21:43:17
Sue Pearson

My 16yr old daughter has mild dyslexia and dyspraxia, her junior school would not accept she had it and refused to get her tested, i was constantly told there was a queue and i would have to wait, when i rang the education to see how far down the list we were, i was told there was no such list and my daughter got tested that afternoon since being diagnosed it has been an utter battle with the schools.

She is now ready to leave high school and start college in September, we have spoke to the college and the support that will be put in place is fantastic.

So please never ever give up fighting for your child, sometimes i wish i could of done more than i did, jmy story would go on for a while as the challenge we had with both junior and high school is unbelievable but hopefully things will change.

06/06/2011 15:04:00
totstv

HI MY NAME IS ANNMARIE I HAVE TWO BOYS RYLEY 6 REECE 4 SINCE REECE WAS THE AGE OF 2 HE STARTED TRIPPING OVER AND HIS BEHAVIOUR WAS SO BAD WE GOT STOPPED GOING FROM A FAMILY PLAYGROUP THE HEALTH VISITOR GOT INVOLVED AND THE COMMUNITY PAEDATRICIAN ALSO THE SKOOL GOT ME A FAMILY SUPPORT WORKER AFTER 2 YEARS OF TELLING THEM MY SON IS NOT RIGHT AND CONTINUAS LETTER FROM THE SKOOL THE COMMUNITY PAEDATRICIAN FINALLY REFERED HIM TO C D C CENTER AFTER 3 SESSIONS WERE CALLED BACK AND THIS IS WHAT THEY TOLD ME....AUTISM HAS DEFANITLY BEEN RULED OUT BUT DYSPRAXIA AND ADHD HASNT UNTIL HES 6 THEY SAID THEY CANT LABEL HIM!! IM AT WITTS END CAUSE I NO MY SON IS DIFFRENT HE HAS FULL TIME SKOOL IN SEPTEMBER AND IM SO WORRIED AS HES NOT GONNA HAVE ONE TO ONE NO MORE WHAT DOES A PARENT HAVE TO DO???

16/06/2011 19:51:58
ANNMARIE

My son has dyslexia and wheat intollerance that gave him behavioral problems and nosebleeds. Things have improved massively since we cut out wheat. He no longer has the behavioral problems, we had to get tested for dyslexia privately since the school wanted to call him autistic.He had a habit of spinning like a ballet dancer which they thought was an autistic behavior, i bekieve it was actually an attempt to sort out his own balance and i realise now it was a symptom of dyspraxia, since he has problems with writing, dressing and processing speech quickly. Has anyone else been misdignosed as autistic?

10/07/2011 07:00:47
Alice Marley

Hi my son is 9 yeas old,but when he was kindergarten he had trouble with writing,In first grade is where he would shut down if the work at school was too hard for him,The teachers asked if there was trouble had home because of his behavior,Of course it wasn't.In second grade is where i finally started looking for help and answers.He had trouble with motors skill gross and fine.He has dyspraxia.He learned how to ride a bike at the age of 8.He had trouble eating with fork and using cutlery.He couldn't do jumping jacks,catch a ball with two hands or throw a ball,skip...etc.He sees an ot every week now for a year he is doing much better .He has short term memory when it comes to comprehension and math calculation.We are still struggling with that/

19/08/2011 04:07:45
donna shwan

can anyone help me please my son is nearly 8 and had a diagnois of adhd, he also has problems with speech , english, maths and behaviour. we have been attending ot for the past 4 years and educational psychologist said he has tendacies of dispraxia and dislexia. I am at my wits end with him and his school and dont no where to go to get a proper diagnoisis for my son, i first noticed my son had problems when he was two and i am still trying to find answers. If anyone could help with information it would very much appreciated janine

06/11/2011 14:23:07
janine

hi, i've just turned 16 and have been diagnoised as dyspraxic my whole life but yesterday went for as consultation as my parents thought thast there was soemthimg elese to my problem. i was diagnoised as dyslexic aswell but i have been through numerous tests beforeand it has always been dismissed beacyuse i was getting b to a grades. In the test i was revealed to have in the highest two percent of intelliegence but it was not obvious due to my conditions, as my reading is fine but i have sevre probelms with writting and translating what is in my head to on the paper, i am great orally but teachers where always mystiefied and thought i wasn't putting in the effort. please if you think your child is dyslexic or dyspraxic please get them checked. it makes life so much easier and dealing with depression bettter adswell

01/02/2012 17:02:35
fiona

Intelligence is not affected.I went right through school and uni system in Scotland. I only ever thought my struggles were unique to me until I learned I had dyspraxia last year. I was 26 and suddenly it all made perfect sense. But I was definitely upset and wondered what would be different if I had known earlier. It threw anything I had ever done under a whole new light. Dyslexia can overlap with dyspraxia and very often does. But not always. I think the problem is dyspraxia can be completely overlooked, because the symptoms are so varied and cannot be pinned down. Even today there is no standard method of diagnosis. Which is a shame because as with anything, early diagnosis can be crucial. For anyone with dyspraxia or parents, I would highly recommend Victoria Biggs book 'Caged In Chaos'. It was written by a 15 year old girl with dyspraxia, who explains her life experience, ways of coping and it is extremely inspiring.

I think her writing style in itself just shows how creative and intelligent children with dyspraxia can be. It offers a lot of hope- dyspraxia need not be a barrier.

As there is very little literature out there, any information you can find is well worth the read, especially if you are pursuing an assessment. This way G.Ps and professionals will take you seriously, as some can be a bit dismissive. Even if it means writing down all the examples you can think of, they will have it there in black and white.

02/02/2012 22:10:34
Valerie Rutherford